Posts by Doug Mason

82

first contradiction in the bible?

by cptkirk in

contradiction without the use of an outside medium (such as archaeology, fossil study).

i just stumbled on this after reading the thread about adam and the sexual subliminal message.

i was thinking about adam and eve and chronology, and a contradiction popped up in my head...so i picked up the bible and there it is.. gen 1:27 - god creates adam and eve, tells them to be fruitful.. gen 2:18 - now adam is alone?

Doug Mason

Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are from different sources. It is possible they were amalgamated by Ezra or during his time. The same process happened with other parts, such as when the two Flood stories were amalgamated.

Doug

82

first contradiction in the bible?

by cptkirk in

contradiction without the use of an outside medium (such as archaeology, fossil study).

i just stumbled on this after reading the thread about adam and the sexual subliminal message.

i was thinking about adam and eve and chronology, and a contradiction popped up in my head...so i picked up the bible and there it is.. gen 1:27 - god creates adam and eve, tells them to be fruitful.. gen 2:18 - now adam is alone?

Doug Mason

Leo,

You put a smile on my face when you wrote that "female is created to compliment him". That's the great weakness of men, isn't it? They want their women to compliment them. Of course, I know you meant "complement".

Thanks,

Doug

14

What was the source of Ptolemy's Astronomical Data used in the Almagest?

by VM44 in

does anyone know the source of the astronomical data that ptolemy used in his book the alamagest?.

the astronomical observations would have been time indexed using the year and day of the currently ruling king of babylon.. this becomes important is when one computes time differences between observations, particularly if the observations spanned the reigns of two different kings!.

Doug Mason

Larry,

I'm glad you finally worked out the problems with your formatting.

When you look carefully at my post, you will see that they were not my words, but that I was providing an answer to the original question from an objective source.

So that I do not have to wade through all the detail, could you tell me very simply which date you start from and where you get that originating date from.

Thanks,

Doug

30

Nebuchadnezzar's dream image - no room for China?

by SweetBabyCheezits in

a guy who used to be a jw buddy recently gave me hope that he's waking up to the wt fallacy.

he's concerned about the fact that china is becoming the next superpower, which creates issues for the statue in daniel ch.

2.. based on current jw light, there's no room for a single dominant world power after the "politically fragmented" landscape appears (the feet of mixed clay/iron).

Doug Mason

Which shows what fanciful ideas come out when a fanciful interpretation is given.

The Book/scroll of Daniel (its two sections are in two differnt languages) was compiled in the 2nd century BCE at the time of serious oppression and persecution of the Jews. The purpose of the book was to provide messages of hope to those people, using stories that would not carry meaning to their oppressors.

The story of the breakup of the superpower and of a rock striking it was intended to relate to their time. It was a message to them and for them.

Daniel was not a true prophet. He never worked for or preached to God's people. He interpreted dreams, and he did that for a heathen king. The stories are myths where people could stand in a fire and not even get singed, where ravenous lions were selective in the people they ate. These were stories intended to provide hope to the Jews being persecuted just as were these mythical people. It was a story-telling mechanism.

To this day, the Jews do not recognise Daniel as a prophet in the true sense, and they do not include the book in the prophetic part of Scripture. It is a "writing", not a prediction.

Given the bizarre pictures and messages, and that they were to be understood by a different culture, results in the widest range of interpretations and is dangerous place to base one's faith.

Dooug

28

Can you give specific examples of the WTBTS taking quotes out of context?

by Chemical Emotions in

not just from the bible, but from secular writers and others.

or other similar mistakes/lies regarding quotes and stories and things like that.. .

i have noticed a few, but i can't remember most of them... oops.

Doug Mason

Here are a couple of pages I produced in the 1970s, reproducing several pictures from Justus Lipsius' book, Der Cruce Liber Primus.

http://www.jwstudies.com/Pictures_from_Lipsius_de_Cruce_Liber_Primus.pdf

For those living here in Melbourne, the rare book can be seen at the State Library.

Doug

28

Can you give specific examples of the WTBTS taking quotes out of context?

by Chemical Emotions in

not just from the bible, but from secular writers and others.

or other similar mistakes/lies regarding quotes and stories and things like that.. .

i have noticed a few, but i can't remember most of them... oops.

Doug Mason

VM44,

How did you get the URL for Michael's booklet so quickly?

I was still trying to get my "brain" into gear and you had already posted the URL for Michael Van Buskirk's booklet.

I still have an original "somewhere", but it was good to see it is available online.

Doug

28

Can you give specific examples of the WTBTS taking quotes out of context?

by Chemical Emotions in

not just from the bible, but from secular writers and others.

or other similar mistakes/lies regarding quotes and stories and things like that.. .

i have noticed a few, but i can't remember most of them... oops.

Doug Mason

VM44,

Thank you!

Doug

28

Can you give specific examples of the WTBTS taking quotes out of context?

by Chemical Emotions in

not just from the bible, but from secular writers and others.

or other similar mistakes/lies regarding quotes and stories and things like that.. .

i have noticed a few, but i can't remember most of them... oops.

Doug Mason

I remember the mischief in the "Chronology" article in the "Aid" book, such as half a sentence from Neugebauer (repeated in the "Insight" book), misrepresenting Pritchard's book, and so on.

Something I wrote about 1987 might be relevant to your question:

http://www.jwstudies.com/Handling_Medical_Evidence.pdf

I wonder if "Scholastic Dishonesty of the Watchtower" is still around. It contains a letter from Mantey who wrote to the Watchtower demanding an apology for the way they were using his book.

I recall that they misquoted Hislop by using "the trinity" whereas he wrote "a trinity".

In the original NWT NT intro they showed a picture from Justus Lipsius of a man tied to a pole, without revealing that this was only one of many pictures in Lipsius' book (De Cruce Liber Primus) and that he concluded the conventional depiction was the correct one.

Page 134 of the 1963 book, "Babylon the Great Has Fallen!" says that page 306 of "Harper's Bible Dictionary" says Nebuchadnezzar came against Jehoiakim in 618 BC, but the Dictionary says that Jehoiakim was dethroned in 598 BC.

The WTS repeatedly cites the book "Babylonian Chronology" by Parker and Dubberstein as being the authoritative source, yet the WTS does not accept the dates provided by P&D.

Doug

14

What was the source of Ptolemy's Astronomical Data used in the Almagest?

by VM44 in

does anyone know the source of the astronomical data that ptolemy used in his book the alamagest?.

the astronomical observations would have been time indexed using the year and day of the currently ruling king of babylon.. this becomes important is when one computes time differences between observations, particularly if the observations spanned the reigns of two different kings!.

Doug Mason

The following is from Historical Eclipses and Earth’s Rotation, F. Richard Stephenson, pages 93-97

More celestial observations are preserved from Babylon than from any other contemporary civilisation. Yet until about a century ago, when large numbers of clay tablets devoted to astronomy began to be unearthed at the site of Babylon, little was known about the achievements of the skywatchers of this once great city. What could be established was mainly based on ancient Greek texts and the Old Testament. Both the Prophet Isaiah (e.g. 47:13) and the ancient Greek writer Strabo (Geography, XVI, 1.6) stress the Babylonian preoccupation with astrology. ... The ancient Greek historian Diodorus Siculus (Library of History, II, 9) implies that the lofty ziggurat - built during the reign of Nebuchadrezzar II (604-563 BC) was used as an observatory. ...

Among writers of the ancient Greek and Roman world whose works are still extant, only the great Alexandrian astronomer Claudius Ptolemy (c. AD 150) hints at the true scale on which celestial observation was practised at Babylon. In his Mathematike Syntaxis (Mathematical Systematic Treatise) - which later became known as the Almagest - Ptolemy specifically mentions sets of Babylonian eclipse observations to which he had access. ...

It is regrettable that Ptolemy actually cites no more than ten Babylonian records of lunar eclipses from the apparently large number available to him. Furthermore, no observations of solar eclipses from Babylon are preserved in the Almagest, although there are a few references to other celestial phenomena reported from this site, such as conjunctions of planets with stars. These various observations range in date from 721 to 229 BC, lunar eclipses covering the period from 721 to 382 BC.

The discovery of vast numbers of astronomical cuneiform texts at the site of Babylon during the 1870s and 1880s was eventually to revolutionise knowledge of Babylonian astronomy. These texts, which are in the form of inscribed clay tablets, range in date from about 730 BC to AD 75. Many of the eclipse records which they contain have proved so important in studies of the Earth's past rotation. ... In particular, the earlier observations must have formed the ultimate source of the material used by Hipparchus and Ptolemy. Despite the existence of this huge archive, the ten Babylonian lunar eclipse records cited in the Almagest form an interesting set of data and deserve to be analysed in their own right. ... It should be stressed that [the Assyrian cuneiform tablets of the eighth and seventh centuries BC] are mainly in the form of astrological texts and - unlike the Babylonian material - contain little quantitative information. 4.2 The Babylonian lunar eclipse records in the Almagest The very earliest astronomical records quoted in the Almagest are exclusively of Babylonian origin. ... Ptolemy evidently did not have access to material much older than 721 BC - the earliest Babylonian eclipse record which he discusses. He states (III, 7) that beginning with the reign of King Nabonassar (correct name: Nabu-nasir) of Babylon (747-733 BC) 'the ancient observations are, on the whole, preserved down to our own time'. This is apparently why Ptolemy chose the era of Nabonassar (747 BC) for numbering years. ... It is a fact that Babylonian history and chronology are extremely weak in the two centuries immediately prior to Nabonassar's reign. Even the names of several kings who ruled during this interval are unknown (cf. Oates, 1979, p.201). However, beginning with Nabonassar, Babylonian chronology is securely established.

It seems very likely that Ptolemy did not compile the list of Babylonian observations himself. The evidence points instead to Ptolemy's great predecessor Hipparchus of Rhodes (c. 150 BC). As noted above, Ptolemy specifically mentions a series of eclipse observations which had been 'brought over from Babylon' and investigated by Hipparchus. Toomer (1988) is of the opinion that the entire Babylonian record available to Ptolemy was compiled by Hipparchus, further suggesting that Hipparchus 'arranged them in a form suitable for use by Greek astronomers'. It is clear from reading the accounts of individual eclipses quoted by Ptolemy that he did not receive them at first hand. Sadly, apart from the material preserved in the Almagest, all trace of Hipparchus' compilation has long been lost.

No ancient manuscripts of the Almagest now exist; the earliest copies date from the ninth century AD (Toomer, 1984, pp. 2-4). However, as Toomer points out, there is in general very close accord between the text of individual manuscripts.

For the very earliest eclipse observations (721 and 720 BC) which he cites, Ptolemy numbers the year from the accession of Mardokempad (Marduk-apla-iddin), who was ruler of Babylon at the time. However, all later years are counted from the era of Nabonassar. Although the eclipse dates would originally be expressed in terms of the Babylonian luni-solar calendar, Ptolemy invariably specifies the month in terms of the Egyptian calendar. Numbering days from a fixed epoch was considerably simplified on this latter system. Each Egyptian year contained 12 equal months of 30 days followed by 5 epagomenal ('additional') days. This fixed year of 365 days was not adjusted to the solar year by intercalation so that the first day of the year gradually retrograded through the seasons, making a complete circuit in 1460 years (the Sothic cycle). ...

In quoting days of the month for lunar eclipses, Ptolemy was in the habit of using double dates - e.g. Thoth 18/19. This is because although the civil day began at sunset in Babylon, according to Egyptian convention it commenced at the following sunrise (Toomer, 1984, p. 12). ...

Comparison with the many lunar records found on the astronomical tablets recovered from Babylon makes it clear that the eclipse times quoted by Ptolemy are not in original form (i.e. using time-degrees) but have been modified to correspond to the Greek method (equinoctial or seasonal hours). Presumably Hipparchus was responsible for these reductions. It is a pity that the original measurements are not preserved; it is likely that some loss of accuracy would occur when the times were reduced to the Greek system. However, no attempt at restoration is possible. Only in a single case (523 BC) is there a parallel inscription on an extant cuneiform tablet, and even this is problematical.

38

Something the "Watchtower" left out

by Doug Mason in

the october 1, 2011 watchtower article when was ancient jerusalem destroyed?

includes the following statement.. .

there is also strong evidence from cuneiform documents that prior to the reign of nabopolassar (the first king of the neo-babylonian period), another king (ashuretel-ilani) ruled for four years in babylonia.

Doug Mason

When I saw the Watchtower article’s reference to Anatolian Studies, it stood out like a sore thumb. In the latter 1960s we were constantly visited by JWs.

Quite fortuitously, I obtained two studies at the time that exposed the Watchtower’s errors with 1914, and their neo-Babylonian chronology in particular.

When part A-E of “Aid to Bible Understanding” came out, I sought the material referenced by the “Chronology” article.

For example, at page 327 the author wrote:
“What is thought to be a memorial written either for the mother or the grandmother of Nabonidus, gives some chronological information for this period, but many portions of the text are damaged. In the following translation of one section (taken from Pritchard's Ancient Near Eastern Texts, pp. 311, 312), the words and figures in brackets represent the historian's attempts at restoring the damaged parts of the text. To appreciate how truly fragmentary the text is (etc., etc.)”

This was Pritchard's reference to the 1906 Adda-guppi stelae, which indeed were badly damaged, and years had been inserted by modern scholars.

However, on pages 560-561 of Pritchard's book I also read that identical but undamaged stelae had been discovered in 1956, and these confirmed the previously postulated dates. That meant that the author of Aid’s “Chronology” article did not reveal what Pritchard’s book actually said.

At the moment I cannot recall the reason, but in my searching I obtained the 1958 article in Anatolian Studies by Gadd that is referred to by the Watchtower article.

I recollect that issues raised by Gadd were addressed by Joan Oates; details are stuck somewhere in the cobwebs of the mind. Those were the days of BPC (before personal computers), where we had to write letters and visit libraries.

I notice a book on Babylon by Joan Oates is available online; I assume it could be helpful.

Doug